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just in my opinion i dont like it...

haha the myosin heads thing....it makes sense. was just talking about training anaerobically.... It just means through most of the training the sarcomeres that make up the skeletal muscles are working off oxygen. Instead of having to go through glycolysis, occurring inside the sarcoplasm between the mitochondria and the myosin heads. Causing muscle contractions anaerobically but only getting 2 ATP per Glucose instead of 36. That

Take exercise physiology with Barnes and he'll explain this to you more easily.

"haha the myosin heads thing....it makes sense. was just talking about training anaerobically.... It just means through most of the training the sarcomeres that make up the skeletal muscles are working off oxygen. Instead of having to go through glycolysis, occurring inside the sarcoplasm between the mitochondria and the myosin heads. Causing muscle contractions anaerobically but only getting 2 ATP per Glucose instead of 36. That

Once we explain the two cycles to the average high schyool runner it will be like a light bulb turning on in his/her head and you will hear them say Ahhhh I get it.
Now go out and run fast and keep left.

Off the top of my head, the only functional issue with myosin heads is the pH in which they can work.

I found some stuff on PAVVO (charts, paces, philosophy,etc.) online. I dont have time right now (on a lunch break) I can post them later.

The comment on muscle contraction / myosin head.... uh.. even when you are walking these myosin heads on your muscle fibers are working. Its not about areobic/anaerobic respiration. It is if there is available ATP for contraction. Here is a graphic on the contraction (www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscletissue/contraction/m....) press play.

Anyway, in connecting the myosin head talk, the more intense the contraction, more fibers are used. What I understand from PAVVO, is that there is a lot of intense training. More fibers get recruited and trained.

Yes, H.S. runners improve on PAVVO as anyone would. What limits performance is maximal oxygen consumption or I should say velocity at max O2. The PAVVO system trains the vo2max / lactate threshold systems.

I think the reason they dont improve in college is because college coaches stress the same thing. VO2max/ and LT work. Its already optimally trained. What should be stressed is endurance to level out performances.

I think thats like putting the cart before the horse. Endurance after the MAXVO2/speed. We ought to build houses with their roofs on the floor and the cement slab up in the air.
We are taking a really SIMPLE CONCEPT and turning it on its ear.
If PAAVO was such a panacea we would have Luling kicking the crap out of Lockhart every year or SLC tearing the Woodlands a new one each year, and there would be 50 Colby Lowes in the wings.
This is not happening.
In Fayetteville we have a guy producing runner after runner for the last 4 generations and he can look back on a workout done in 76 and se how that compares to Duncan Phillips doing the same one 31 years later for comparison.
Then we wonder why these kids are not producing at the next level. We have forgotton the art of keeping it simple.

1. Work Hard.
2. Work Smart.
3. Believe in Excellence and DEMAND it from yourself first.
4. Believe in what you do.
5. Follow basic physiology over the long haul.
6. Make long term improvement a key component of your philosophy.
7. Have FUN at working with the BEST KIDS this STATE has to OFFER!
8. There are NO SHORTCUTS.
9. Develop a PASSION and LIVE IT.
10. Develop ALL RUNNERS with INDIVIDUAL TRAINING PLANS.

Where did you get the ten steps from?

The ten steps come from many sources and from good coaches that have demonstrated success over the long haul.
Daniels-
Lydiard-
Vigil-
McDonald-
Igloi-
Hippensteel-
Green-
Vick-
Schrader-

Did they vote on the ten steps?

I used Train hard and train smart as my sendoff during podcasts. Weird.

Alright Joey and X why are ya'll lettin kids make you feel insecure about runnin, they are just mad cause you are way more intense than them because in PAAVO we ride polar bears, thats the secret i said it, oh and we drink reindeer milk before our race! (we get it from Lasse)

Oh and doitoitlars knows more than everyone, he is the one that catches the polar bears for us to ride/fight

but on a more serious note...I think it's funny how everyone trashes paavo, and then when paavo kids destroy state, everyone's suddenly interested

OK...My one question -- is there a vow of secrecy that you take when you go to the camps or clinics? Do they tell you that you shouldn't try to explain the training to people over the internet?

The reason I ask is because I can find out about the nation's premier secret society - skull and bones - which has tons of famous and powerful alumni that are privy to all sorts of info that we would be shot dead if we knew, yet I can't find anything regarding paavo on the net aside from the fact that it will give you a key motivating experience.

That fact is that people are going to be interested in success and they will then ask about it. When you tell them you just can't explain it, it is going to prompt criticism. I've seen plenty of stuff regarding The Woodlands and Kingwoods programs in print. Dan Green and Juris Green have talked about their workouts in front of crowds with specifics.

So people aren't trying to knock any group by asking these questions. They're trying to figure out what these successful squads are doing that is so different.

Be flattered.

no no, we understand that you're not trying to knock paavo...you're interested...that's very understandable. However, everytime I've seen someone try to explain paavo to another person, and then that person goes and tries the workouts, it always ends in failure. Then we have these ignorant people that, when they fail, decide that their one mission in life is to deride paavo and anyone that uses it. This person thought that maybe they could just jump right into it, that they didn't need some formal instruction first. Then this person, in comtempt, goes on boards and totally trashes it.

THAT is why we don't tell anyone about it. THAT is why it will probably always maintain that mystique that it posesses right now...and to be honest with you...I kinda like it that way...

I just want to know the answer to the question -- are you told not to tell people?

Or is it casually implied that the workouts may end up devastating runners if they fall into the hands of the idiot uneducated coach or athlete?

It has to be one or the other. There is no way that 36 years of clinics and supposedly thousands of runners would produce two semi-detailed references on the entire internet.

And nobody outside of paavo programs can really describe it. I've got some general information over a two year period. No specifics.

Meanwhile, I can go to a clinic and see the coach from Indiana U talk about his sub-4:00 milers that only ran 7 laps at sub-60 pace for an entire season, 4 of which were during the 3:57 mile, and then explain the physiological basis for his training program. Whether or not you agree with the guy, he put that out there for everyone and he was open to discussion.

Clyde Hart's training is out there, too. It is detailed enough that I incorporated it successfully into the training program of my 800 runners.

None of them are worried that someone will duplicate it and fail and bring on a heap of criticism. You know why?

Because they are awesome coaches and, deep down, they know it.

My main point is this -- why can't more people know about this training without going to the clinics? I already know the answer. I also know that this has something to do with the reason that nobody talks about it.

The truth is that this is all fine and dandy. I normally don't get caught up in the whole thing, but when I see people pretending to be disgusted by their program being critiqued in a reasonable manner while at the same time making inside jokes about bears in every thread, I begin to think this isn't the fault of those asking questions. It is the fault of the people who don't (or can't) provide answers when they are respectfully asked by knowledgeable coaches and athletes.

Many of you want an exclusive club, so you get an exclusive club. That is the truth.

the answer to your question: no, we are not made to abide by an "oath" not to tell people...however...through experience, we know that the best course of action...is simply just to keep it to ourselves.

well said aggietom.

No offense, but the "we don't tell people because they will do it wrong and fail" is a cop out response. If that's the case Lydiard should have never ever published anything, because plenty of people do his stuff "wrong" according to his own viewpoint. Same could be said with Daniels, or Canova, or Vigil, or any other coach.
Just a personal pet peave but I hate the pseudo science mumbo jumbo that is used at times when I've talked training with paavo people.

im a freshman at seven lakes. I completed my season last week and ill give my insight on paavo. According to our upper classmen the knowledge of the system was not there last year but rathke went to two or three paavo clinics with ondrasek and barrnet and there was a visable difference in his mindset about the program. The key points of paavo are three main things

1) stick to the structure always. the stages take you from just continuous mileage to structuring your runs ie. monday long tuesday shorter and faster etc. then the ppm stage(pace per mile) takes the fast days and you run 90 seconds slower than a timed mile the previous saturday then the average of your fast runs minus another 45 seconds is your recovery run the next day leading into another fast day after that. then onto intervals but i wont explain those.

2)there are 5 key quotes that are learned by the runners that are supposed to be put into everyday life. Paavo isnt just the running it tells you the attitude to have throughout your day

3) the motivation. the program will work if the runner applies him/herself to sticking to the program and running it correctly. without the motivation to run the structure properly the training will not work correctly when the time comes. An example is the race shocking. if done correctly it will allow for a for a very quick first mile and then the ability to hold on for the last 2 miles. But the runners must have the motivation to run hard for the first mile of the early races in the season even if that means dying in those races this motivation must come from the runner which is why the camps are in place they bring all these runners together to help motivate each other and have some fun for a week. almost all seven lakes runners are planning on attending at least one paavo camp

anyway the system works for those who believe in it im sure my coach has said over half the stuff i wrote many times but motivation and trusting the structure are what separates the good paavo runners from the ones at the state meet.

OK. It sounds like there are aerobic threshold and lactate threshold runs plus some interval training.

The all-out mile plus two is a bit different, but coaches have different ways of simulating by-product buildup like that. I am assuming that is the point of that workout.

The low-set and high-set stuff sound like they might be 3k or 5k pace intervals with alternating recovery lengths in between. I've seen two different accounts of this, so it is hard to say which is the one that actually occurs.

The concept of a low-set and high-set aren't that out there. This seems to be just increasing volume of the work without changing the time in which the intervals are run.

We build up in a period of 3 weeks from 8 to 10 to 12 or so (depending on the run length) before cutting it down while dropping time and/or recovery.

The one thing I haven't seen is what type of long runs the runners typically do. Are they weekly? And what do they get up to for 3k or 5k training?

Thanks for the info.

Tom,

I sent you a PM.

mrjdye-- You did a really good job with your team this year! Keep up the great work!

AggieTom- I am trying to send you a pm but my computer is not allowing it at this time.

Thank you.